Victor wrote:
“
“As for Pepe’s supposedly adopting Neal Chase as his own son, no such adoption ever took place.”
If you are privy of evidence to the contrary you should provide it.
Absolutely not. When someone makes the sort of momentous claim that Neale Chase has made it is incumbent upon the claimant to provide proof, NOT for others to disclaim it.
And, despite your lengthy posts, Victor, you have proved nothing. Quinn
doris wrote:
Victor wrote: “The Baha’is go by the law of primogeniture, which to the oldest or ONLY son goes the inheritence which is both physical and administrative when it comes to the Guardianship.”
You keep saying that…and you’re wrong. Baha’u’llah instructed people to turn to The Master after His passing because of the spiritual, God-like qualities The Master possessed. Qualities that none of us can ever match no matter who we are – towering, beautiful, unique qualities that made hime the Mystery of God.
You insult and denegrate Baha’u’llah’s choice by saying that the choice was made because The Master was simply the oldest son as though Baha’u’llah’s chosen successor was a matter not of eternal closeness to God, but of the fleeting matter of time, of which the Worlds of God beyond this one are free. How pitiful!
In the spiritual worlds to come it is the marvellous spiritual qualities of The Master that make him who he is, and are the reasons he was chosen, not the fleeting matter of chronological birth dates on this planet which are of less consequence than the blink of an eye spiritually!
Shame on you.Doris
Shame on me? Shame on you for claiming to be a Baha’i and not knowing the writings and going against the hereditary principal which, is invariably upheld by the Will of God.
“in the verses of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas the implications of which clearly anticipate the institution of the Guardianship; in the explanation which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, in one of His Tablets, has given to, and the emphasis He has placed upon, the hereditary principle and the law of primogeniture as having been upheld by the Prophets of the past — in these we can discern the faint glimmerings and discover the earliest intimation of the nature and working of the Administrative Order which the Will of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was at a later time destined to proclaim and formally establish.
(8 February 1934, published in “The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 147)
Victor
Victor wrote: “The Baha’is go by the law of primogeniture, which to the oldest or ONLY son goes the inheritence which is both physical and administrative when it comes to the Guardianship.”
You keep saying that…and you’re wrong. Baha’u’llah instructed people to turn to The Master after His passing because of the spiritual, God-like qualities The Master possessed. Qualities that none of us can ever match no matter who we are – towering, beautiful, unique qualities that made hime the Mystery of God.
You insult and denegrate Baha’u’llah’s choice by saying that the choice was made because The Master was simply the oldest son as though Baha’u’llah’s chosen successor was a matter not of eternal closeness to God, but of the fleeting matter of time, of which the Worlds of God beyond this one are free. How pitiful!
In the spiritual worlds to come it is the marvellous spiritual qualities of The Master that make him who he is, and are the reasons he was chosen, not the fleeting matter of chronological birth dates on this planet which are of less consequence than the blink of an eye spiritually!
Shame on you. Doris
Janice wrote:
I meant to say “we just have to find someone, somewhere that witnessed either Mason or Abdu’l-Baha referring to Marangella endearingly as a son and then handing him a stick or a stone.”
As far as I understand it, the addressing of someone as ‘son’ is both a private and public declaration so that others my be abreast of who is up for consideration. If Mr. Marangella were addressed as such, then there should be some sort of public record of this so it is not hidden from the believers so they may know of this fact. The only obstructions to the path that is the lineage and thus the Promise, are the people themselves. If it is has been revealed or asserted that someone has been adopted in this way, it is the first sign that they are the one. If upon further investigation it is deemed true and certain that this person was addressed as ‘son'(Aghsan) then this is worthy of consideration. The problem is, no other group claims to adhere to this principal or criteria. But this is the criteria the W&T provides and the precedent that Abdu’l-Baha established. So there is only one path, one center, one point of unity that can be easily recognized and universally accepted as it conforms to standards already common amongst peoples of all nations, i.e. Primogeniture, kingship, the Line of David, but as explained before, the Guardian is not a despot or a dictator. He is the “sign of God” as you are able to tell the true UHJ from all the fakes, frauds and imitations by the true Aghsan Guardian at its head and that being the head he is only one member in an entire body with being limited, just like every other member, to a vote of one and no overriding veto power except where explicitly revealed in the W&T. This is the kine of David robed in the garment of Justice as Baha’u’llah brought Justice for how can you have peace without justice? You cannot! Peace without justice is tyranny and oppression. Baha’u’llah brought Justice. The father to son Aghsan lineage is a simple recipe to follow for justice as this is under the protection of the Abha Beauty when all the constituent ingredients are present. That is, the true executive head of the Aghsan Guardian and the body of true believers. Very simple, very easy. The hard part is climbing over all this accumulated garbage that has been strewn in the pathway to the Promise. If you focus on the Straight Path, father to son no matter what, this is where the blessed fruit of the kingdom grows.
Victor
George wrote:
What is remarkable about the Baha’i Faith is that it has grown exponentially and remained unified.
I grew up in Downers Grove and graduated from the U of I in Champaign, which is where I became a Baha’i in the 1960s. When I was a Baha’i there were about 14,000 Baha’is in the U.S. There were 164,765 Baha’is in the U.S. as of a few weeks ago, the time of the annual National Baha’i Convention.
It’s easy to play with numbers and come up with different interpretations.
Yes George, you can play with numbers, but not all the time. For instance, 164,765 Mainstrean US Baha’is under the violating guidance of Haifa CB Central, does not 144,000 make. In other words, now that your Covenant-breaking group has surpassed 144,000, how can your group of Baha’is you follow be the promised 144,000 who are prophesied in the Bible and other religions from around the world to appear at the end times/close of the age? These 144,000 are mentioned in all parts of the world. You don’t have to answer, but please let me know when you find these 144,000 who the Hopi call the 144,000 sun dancers, also referred to in Hopi as the “Bahani” your groups numbers are now to big now to be these promised “people of light” that me and the Hopi are waiting for…
What say ye George, one of now too many?
Peace
This article says: “Adherents of the Orthodox Baha’i Faith believe the international community has strayed from the religion’s original teachings. That deviation, they say, threatens to interfere with God’s plan for the world.”
I am not an “orthodox Baha’i” nor a “mainstream Baha’i.” I am a Baha’i though and I say both the groups mentioned in this article are liars and are duped. Neither of these groups deviations from the Baha’i Covenant, “threaten to interfere with God’s plan for the world.” Rather, both of the groups of Baha’is mentioned in this article are deviant from God’s Plan and at the same time, their deviance’s are *Part of God’s Plan.* When you understand how this is then you’ll know you have awakened! The truth of this is all in Baha’u’llah’s Covenant, which is the Kitab’i’Ahd and the Will and Testament of Abd’ul-Baha. See for yourself, by reading the source. And if you want to really get into the nitty gritty and background of this topic of Orthodox vs Mainstream, in short, go here: http://www.bahaifaith.net/the-authority-of-th… and here: http://www.bahaifaith.net/who-are-those-ortho…
You’ll see that they are both in error.
Peace
Dear Victor, Susan and others,
Mostly this is about loyalty. How do we become or stay loyal to God? By accepting Baha’u’llah and then trying to figure out where to go from there. It seems as though everyone is extremely sincere, and dedicated to following their understanding of the covenant. It may mean loyalty to a Universal House of Justice or a person they believe is the Guardian. It is tricky if you believe Mason to be the Guardian after Shoghi, but then do you accept Joel as the one appointed, or Donald Harvey,(appointed later) or Pepe (who was never Baha’i but an adopted son)? Another way to determine is by the fruit. Who is living the life, who is following the teachings? Pepe did not follow the teachings, he was not even a Baha’i. It is hard for me to accept this lineage as a Baha’i lineage. As for the Haifa Baha’is, they are lovely, lovely people but their UHJ does not seem to be divinely guided or acting in a just way toward their followers (shunning and hard handed tactics toward questioners). There is an aweful lot of fear in their hearts toward those who really pose no threat to their organization. The Orthodox Baha’is I have met are very sweet, kind hearted and not only that, extremely well versed in the writings. But, regardless of who the True Baha’is are, we are all children of God and the one we want to follow and worship is God. I respect the fact that we are all trying. God can do whatever and hopefully He will reunite us all and if not we can learn to live peacefully and honestly together. Janice
I meant to say “we just have to find someone, somewhere that witnessed either Mason or Abdu’l-Baha referring to Marangella endearingly as a son and then handing him a stick or a stone.” Janice
Dear Janice,
you wrote: “So, Marangella does meet the appointment criteria. Now the question of being a son is easy according to your parameter, we just have to find someone, somewhere that witnessed either Mason or Abdu’l-Baha referring to Mason endearingly as a son and then handing him a stick or a stone. I thought we could all be considered part of a family if we are spiritually connected in love.
Don’t we all inherit the blessings of the kingdom when we turn our hearts toward God?
Yes, we all are. There is that spiritual family that circles around the Covenant. The members of the “Holy Family” were those who didn’t go against Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi and that extends to Mason Remey, Pepe Remey and Neal Chase.
Joel may have received a statement from Mason saying he was the next one, but he wasn’t a son, so he was not in the running. Test, test, test.
Victor
“As for Ottoman adoption laws, here I’m afraid the Jensenites don’t know what they are talking about. I can tell you as Middle Eastern historian, there is no such thing in the Islamic world as adoption as we know it. The Islamic term for what is commonly called adoption is kafala, which comes from a word that means “to feed.” It refers to the act of taking an orphan into ones home, but the child retains his birth parent’s name and he does not inherit from his ‘adoptive’ parents.”
From a webiste called “Adoption in Islam”
“The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once said that a person who cares for an orphaned child will be in Paradise with him, and motioned to show that they would be as close as two fingers of a single hand. An orphan himself, Muhammad paid special attention to the care of children. He himself adopted a former slave and raised him with the same care as if he were his own son.
However, the Qur’an gives specific rules about the legal relationship between a child and his/her adoptive family. The child’s biological family is never hidden; their ties to the child are never severed. The Qur’an specifically reminds adoptive parents that they are not the child’s biological parents”
So, there is adoption in the world of Islam. And of course the child is not the blood descendant, that’s why they’re “adopted”. But the Baha’is are not Muslims. As far as the Muslims not having a kind of adoption that “we know”, that is, a child coming into a family and forgetting about their blood family, this is not what happened with Mason. He retained his family name “Remey” and identity but didn’t move in with Abdu’l-Baha, etc. but Abdu’l-Baha declared Mason to be HIS SON! The BUPC are just saying that “hereditary” line of the Guardian is a simple father to son lineage. Abdu’l-Baha adopted Mason, calling him his son, etc. Mason adopted Pepe and Pepe adopted Neal, according to the wonderful information Susan provided, as this might have been confusing to the believers, for how could Abdu’l-Baha adopt a grown man and still that man retain his name and identity? Good resource for more evidence of how this adoption of Mason by Abdu’l-Baha was genuine. Now we have a keener understanding of this process. Thanks Susan!
Victor